COMMUNITY CAMPAIGN GROUP (CCG)
PUBLIC MEETING TUESDAY 16TH SEPTEMBER 2003
PRESENT ON PLATFORM
Cllr Lorraine Fullbrook
Cllr Debbie Moss
Cllr David Simpson
Anne Bartaby -TAG
ON THE FLOOR
Cathrine Mcloughlin - Director of Nursing
Primary Care Trust
Femi Oduneye Director of Public Health
Primary Care Trust
Ian Lawson - Strategic Planning Officer for Education
Hampshire County Council
Dr John Eyres Conservation Expert
H CC Highways
H CC Highways
Cllrs also present - Cllrs M. Fullbrook, Gotel, Holden, Hunt, Hutcheson, Jones, B. Leversha, Parker, Poulton, Wheale, Vincent
James Arbuthnot MP, Cllr Haffey, Cllr Carol Leversha, Cllr Lambert.
ANNE BARTABY - TAG and Cathy Wood Environment Manager
AB gave a presentation on TAG.
TAG,s goal - to create the best business airport in Europe with the best equipment and have been upgrading the site in the last two years.
Safety culture - comprehensive safety management systems.
Best service to customers
Business or corporate aviation only for major UK companies.
They will take great care of the environment in and around the airport. The site lies in a sensitive area and TAG have a duty and obligation to communicate with local people.
3 critical issues - flight tracks, PSZ, noise.
Flight tracks - key points -
TAG do not have controlled air space - there is flying over the top of Farnborough, and recreational flying nearby. The air space is busy with Odiham, Lasham, Blackbush and Fairoaks locally and Gatwick and Heathrow near by.
There are noise abatement procedures which are published in Air Pilot which show routes planes should follow, except for safety reasons, when air traffic control may instruct differently.
Departures to the north west direction may only turn after rising to 1,800 feet or 2.5 N.miles from the runway.
Departures to the south may turn at 500 feet.
Arrivals from the west use Instrument Landing System - auto calibrated system controlling height and direction - except when authorised not to use it due to safety reasons - a visual approach.
Aircraft must be on ILS from 1,000feet and follow decent of 3.5degrees.
Key points - Defined by Department for Transport (DfT). DfT have responsibility for safety of people on the ground - this is a standard model applied across the country.
PSZ for Farnborough has not yet been declared. It will be based on the planning permission for 28,000 flights p.a.
DfT circular covers this issue. Safety level is set at 1 in 100,000 risk to individuals, based on the number and type of aircraft. Government’s policy is that this should be based on projected flights for 2015
This is administered by the Local Planning Authority who can refer to the DfT.
There is a presumption against new or replacement development or change of use unless the development is not expected to increase the population living or working in the area.
AB illustrated a diagram of the expected PSZ. AB confirmed the DfT had done its initial calculations and the final outcome would be very close to this.
Key points- In the outline application there was a full Environmental Statement (ES) - the largest of its kind. This included a noise impact and noise contours based on future activity. The E.S. showed contours for noise levels of 69dB, 63dB and 57dB - outside the zone noise would be less than 57dB. However, this is a predicted model and TAG are validating and obtaining real measurements. TAG have a noise monitoring system and the106 agreement requires TAG to regularly submit details of noise generated to Rushmoor Borough Council. TAG will produce actual contours and compare these with predicted contours.
Question - AB said height a 3Nmiles was 3,000 feet - this should be 1,000 feet.
AB did not know if this was correct. A pilot said he was correct.
Question - Soo confirmed the airport had no scheduled flights so there was a variation from day to day. AB agreed with this. Soo noted that some days the fly over noise was higher than others and there was sometimes a 4 fold difference which equated to 6dB increase, the same difference as from the low category to high category. AB ackowledged that there would be daily variations. Residential areas can move from low contour one day to high the next.
AB said she would have actual figures by the end of the year.
JR said the Taylor Woodrow (TW) application does not show aircraft noise.
JR noted that since the ILS was introduced planes had passed over Church Crookham more than before. (Applause)
JR noted he had a contour of 57dB in his rear garden on a low movement day - on a high movement day this would move into the high category. TW need to be aware of the contours as they will affect the density of development that can be achieved on the site.
JR noted that 60dB was the upper limit for new development and it may be that QEB falls within this. Noise insulation standards in dwellings with rooms in the roof will be hard to achieve. PPG24 notes that 60dB is desirable upper limit.
JR questioned why it has not been necessary to carry out an avionics noise assessment? This would leave residents without adequate protection and they would have a right to compensation from Hart District Council. Sound monitoring needs to be done on a day that is fully representative. The site is on the edge of a noise contour and it is important to know which side it falls.
AB said she would work with the any developer who wants to measure noise. She had not been asked to work with TW.
Question - LB said PSZ is proxy and based on 28K movements per annum. Is it correct that 70k movements are predicted.
AB said that was not correct. Flight International magazine predicts that 28K will be met by 2005, is that correct? AB said it was difficult to predict because of the economy.
Question JR asked if more flights would be sought from RBC when limit is reached. AB did not know when more movements would be required. Blackbush has 80K movements. Farnborough had 16K last year and 14.5k the year before.
Question AM Was the original planning application for 48K flights? AB said that was not correct. The proposal went through the Local Plan and RBC proposed 20k, at no time did TAG promote or seek 48K.
Question Geoff Marks Who takes responsibility for assessing 3rd party risk? You said it was DfT who take responsibility for people on the ground and that is not true. Safety has to take into account the number of people at risk. The Secretary of State (SofS) says the responsibility for assessing 3rd party risk rests wholly and solely with Local Planning Authorities (LPA). Therefore it is essential that HDC consider what is an acceptable 3rd party risk. AB said that PSZ is defined by DfT and administered by LPA’s and there is a general presumption against new development in it.
Question Geoff Marks The idea that DfT is responsible for safety on the ground is a mistake made consistently in the last five years in the airport planning process. My letters say the SofS takes no responsibility at all. It is the responsibility of the LPA to look at risk and assess it. Over the last five years best practice in judging 3rd party risk has been clear and HDC must follow best practice because HDC must demonstrate best practice.
Question Geoff Marks PSZ’s expand with movements yes or no? AB replied yes.
Question Geoff Marks - AB had said she did not forecast more movements to 2015. AB said she did not say that She said that PSZ would be based on 28K. Government in establishing PSZ know that limit is 28K. GM asked why then has a proxy PSZ been established when Government knew the basis for it two years ago? HDC had asked DfT what they expected the flying movements to be. GM has a letter from Alan Nafzgar confirming that it is not secret that TAG want to expand beyond 28K. TAG’s Chief Executive had also said this at the last air show. GM also has correspondence between James Arbuthnot and John Spellar at DfT about the expansion. GM does not think it right to put PSZ over QEB.
AB repiled that TAG have a planning permission limit and that is what the PSZ calculation will be based upon. No business will say that it will not seek to increase. If, at any stage TAG were to seek to increase flying, all the facts in the first application would be relevant, noise, air quality, safety etc. AB could not say what the position would be in 2010 or 2015.
GM said that in a Government consultation paper the Government predicted increases between 30k to 60k and Farnborough is the best place to accommodate the demand.
Question will TAG work with community about noise and safety or put customers first? AB yes work with community on all factors. Will talk to people at meetings and Cathy Wood will speak to you on the telephone.
Question from pilot (Didn’t get his one)
AB and her colleague were thanked for attending.
Catherine McLoughlin Director of Nursing at Primary Care Trust and Femi Oduneye Director of Public Health.
PCT are responsible for population in Blackwater Valley and formed in April 2002. Responsible for the provision of community services, GP’s and buying services from hospitals, determining local health needs, District Nurses and work with Local Authorities. PCT does not generate income it spends it to the best of its ability and always has to prioritise.
Question JR For 1,132 extra dwellings at QEB how will the extra revenue be calculated? FO there are births, deaths and migration - for new people the money follows afterwards. Always trying to plan ahead.
Question Is there enough accident and emergency provision? Xx there is always slack in the system to cater for this, now have 3 year predicted funding.
Question the slack in Frimley Park is very slight because of the increased population. FO said people will not all arrive at Frimley Park at the same time.
Question Will there be an increase in hospitals? FO no, I hope not to see you there I want you all to stay healthy.
Question The development policy for QEB shows that the first 800 houses will not have health centre this will place a burden on the existing practice. CMcL said residents should lobby for health centre to be built first. We will work with developers on health issues. Have met TW and said were looking for health centre as a priority.
Existing GP’s have capacity. This was disputed by several members of the audience.
Question Alison Macallan, If the Richmond surgery closes and moves to QEB this will take the surgery away from its current proximity to its catchment area. It will also remove the chemist and damage the viability of the whole shopping parade. Bearing Government guidance to provide services close to populations it would be better to have a facility with two surgeries. I know this works because my brother-in-law runs a practice in exactly these circumstances with a similar cathchment. How can we put our views to the PCT?
CMcL queried whether the Richmond Surgery wanted to close. AM said that in the Local Plan it says it would relocate to QEB.
CMcL said that practices can run a branch practice and could do so at QEB. GP’s are independent contractors and can open up wherever they like, cannot tell them what to do. The developers have met with all the Fleet practices. Dr Adrian Williams in Crondall has received money for an extension to take on an extra partner. He will take people from QEB. Branksomewood Road surgery has capacity.
JR said this was not enough. A small surgery should be allowed to serve the site, not a large surgery.
CMcL assured residents that urgent appointments are dealt with in 48 hours and in over 90% of cases that happens.
Gordon Peake said that we already have had experience of a surgery being closed and moved and do not want the same thing to happen to the Richmond Surgery. CMcL replied that she would not advocate the Richmond Surgery closing and moving, but if they decide it would be better to have a facility on QEB it was up to them as contractors.
Question will there be an increase in hospital provision? No want to keep people away from hospitals - keep healthy. If you create beds people will fill them.
The representatives from the PCT were thanked for attending.
Cllr. Lorraine Fullbrook, Debbie Moss & David Simpson – Panel discussion
JR explained why two Councillors, Lorraine Fulbrook and Debbie Moss have lost their right to vote.
LF made a statement: She was speaking as Ward Councillor for Church Crookham West and Debbie Moss for Church Crookham East and not in her capacity as Leader of HDC. Both stood for election because of concerns about over development and Hart has had enough. QEB will have a devastating impact on roads, infrastructure, wildlife, water and sewerage and is a threat to public safety. Government want HDC to provide 6,000 houses in the plan period. I say to Government and developers look elsewhere we are full up. By declaring this we have forfeited our right to vote for what we believe people want and feel so strongly about this issue have chosen free speech instead of vote. However, if everyone took the same action it would go to appeal and it is Government policy to bulldoze the north and concrete the south. The campaign group has our support.
David Simpson - Leader of Liberal Democrats - Councillor in Yateley- ‘Anything I say should not be taken to say I will vote for or against. I have concerns and expect them to be addressed. Everyone needs to know that a Councillor will not pre-judge or pre-determine applications. Clarification sought from Charles Herbert, the Council’s solicitor who was in the audience. He said that when Councillor’s determine applications they exercise a semi-judicial function and have a duty to developers and the public to come with an open mind. They should make the determination when they have all the facts otherwise HDC decisions are open to challenge by developers or campaign groups.
JR did not recognise this as a form of democracy. JR asked if there was a representative from TW in the audience. None made themselves known. JR issued a challenge to TW to give us our democracy back by signing a affidavit not to sue HDC so we can have a free and open debate on the application until it is determined. Residents could write to Ian Napier of TW requesting such an affidavit.
Question HDC have a poor record of stopping development. What are they doing to stop it? Would it be a tactical measure for all remaining Councillors to declare in favour of the development so we have an impasse?
Sean Holden - Fleet Councillor ‘Nothing I say should be taken to mean that I have pre-determined the application. Planning is for people and I see a lot of people here and I will remember that. If you keep doing this it helps Councillors to make up their mind and congratulation so far, but I am not saying what I will do.
Roger Jones - Liberal Democrat is on the Planning Committee - nothing I say will mean I have pre-determined the application. I have complained in the past about people being supine. Congratulations to you people for showing concerns about their area. As an ex-serviceman, I believe in promoting democracy. If anyone believes we live in a democracy at the moment, in 2003, they have got it wrong. I am against the principle of bulldozing the north and concreting the south and that is what is happening. I am against it in principle throughout Hart District eg Hitches Lane, Odiham, Hartley Wintney and all members of the Planning Committee are determined to ensure that requests for housing is balanced and proportional and not at the whim of Whitehall.
Lorriane Fulbrook warned of dangers of a
non-elected group from the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (ODPM)
being sent to Hart to put sanctions against us.
Ian Lawson - Strategic Planning Officer for Education at HCC.
The current position is that HCC have been considering whether a Primary School should be provided at QEB. Has held discussions with Heads and Governors from local schools in the last four years about Elvetham Heath and QEB. A new school has been provided at EH because EH is sufficiently remote from existing schools. The three schools in Church Crookham are all of the opinion that we should plan for the new population to attend their schools therefore the current proposal is for no new primary school to be provided. Money will still be received from TW. School Organisation plan is published each year and out for consultation at present - you may not have realised this and it is in the Public Library. Write by 16th October if you have any comments and they will be looked at by the School Organisation Committee. QEB will give rise to 250 to 300 extra Primary places. Twesledown Infant School have started to draw up plans for providing the extra places.
Courtmoor and Calthorpe are sufficient in size. 430 places are available each year between the two schools and 430 is enough for those in the catchment area. At present the schools are popular for those outside catchment and this adds to traffic, therefore excluding these children will reduce traffic. Two types of pre-school are proposed, one as a typical playgroup in the Community Hall and the other as a commercial as day care nursery for working parents.
Question JR The developers proudly say they will give 2.2m to secondary schools, where is it going? IL replied that all schools need improvements and will spend the money in the schools.
Question Will QEB be in Courtmoor or Calthorpe catchment? IL said this had not been discussed in detail, the canal causes problems with defining catchment and in the Crondall area for example there is debate as to whose catchment is appropriate. Courtmoor is the closest, but it has not been decided.
Question Traffic in Reading Road South is a nightmare and Malthouse Bridge is single track. If you leave Crookham Village at 8.25 for the Nokia roundabout you will be lucky to arrive in with your car still in one piece. Emergency vehicles cannot get down road in the morning and afternoon.
Question DS Extra Primary provision to existing schools will put the extra places near to PSZ - does the developer have a duty of care to people? IL said he is aware of the PSZ and proximity of existing schools - this is not an issue, but if you have other views, let us know - was the new school any less dangerous? I know there are traffic problems, the schools will have to produce school travel plans which show how they won’t increase traffic. For example, a bus leaves Elvetham Heath for both secondary schools.
Question New schools were proposed for Ancells Farm and Zebon Copse and never happened and now HCC has declined another school opportunity.
Question Children do better in smaller environments, work situations are getting smaller. You will be asking children to travel long distance and are not willing to provide local schools that they can walk to. Also larger and larger secondary schools are putting children under greater stress. IL said that the size of the enlarged schools was not unreasonable. Infant schools would be no bigger than Heatherside and Junior no bigger than All Saints which is very popular with parents. Secondary schools with 1,200 places are not unreasonable.
Question DS There will be approx 250 extra places for primary and 430 places are available in secondary schools, how many will go to secondary school from QEB? Did the Transport Assessment take the schools into account? Otherwise the figures will be false, it also needs to take into account the Doctor’s surgery which will create traffic going into the site. IL replied that 250 primary places equates to 200 secondary places, 40 in each year group. The 40 from QEB would displace 40 from outside the catchment area and there are at least 40 from outside the catchment.
Question DS asked where these children would go? IL said the majority came from Farnborough and Cove and schools in those areas have surplus capacity.
Question a resident from Oakwood asked if the traffic impact had been considered. Parents work and drive to school and then carry on to work, the extra traffic will be bad for residents. IL replied that one of his concerns was that ‘TW did not consult us at all in Education’. ‘Planning consultants did not consult us in as much detail as we would have liked.’
Question JR put a map of the Heatheside catchment area on to screen. It showed the catchment including an area of the pSPA. IL said the catchment had to be shown somewhere. He claimed that all areas are covered by a school catchment. He agreed that no one lives there, he said it was not significant and did not indicate future housing.
Question It was pointed out that
the site allocated for a school on Zebon Copse turned out to be too
small and under a pylon. The current sites are close to the PSZ and are
unsuitable for schools.
John Eyre (JE) an expert on the pSPA.
JR in his introduction pointed out that the proximity to the pSPA makes QEB special.
JE said the Bourley and Long Valley east of Beacon Hill is a natural barrier between Fleet and Church Crookham and Aldershot and Farnborough. It has survived because it is a military training area. Lowland heath is rare in the southern England and Europe and it has special wildlife, not just birds. It was made a SSSI in 1993. A few years later it was included in a European conservation directive - the Thames Basin Heaths pSPA which exists in European law to support populations of birds. There are three species, the Dartford Warbler, Nightjar and Woodlark, all relatively scarce in the world. We are lucky to have such good populations of these birds.
Under European law the Government is duty bound to protect these areas. Any development which takes place in close proximity to a pSPA has to be assessed. If it is considered that damage may take place, amelioration steps have to be taken or the development has to be refused. HDC’s consultant has concluded there would be damage and land has been set aside for dog walkers. However, 3,000 people or more would do more damage than just dogs. Fires, children, bikes, and general people pressure will cause damage and law says if that is the case, the development should be turned down.
There is a need to see more attention paid to this area by HDC, National Government and English Nature. We need to see less people being crammed into this area. In other areas proximity to a pSPA has lead to proposals being turned down, for some reason this proposal has got much further in the planning process than it should have done.
Question DS if QEB goes to appeal would you likely be called as an expert and what qualifies you as such? Dr JE replied that he had spent 20 years monitoring the birds and it was his data that had lead to the designation of the SSSI and to the pSPA.
Question Should JE be a consultee to HDC for this application? JE replied yes, he would be willing. Also need the RSPB who were fighting development in Woolmer forest and fought and won in Dorset at Holton Heath.
Question AM There are additional development pressures in existing residential areas which are close to the pSPA and a lot of pressure for sub-division of land, Should HDC notify English Nature when infilling in existing areas? Charles Herbert, the Council’s solicitor confirmed that English Nature are a statutory consultee and if HDC feel pSPA may be affected, they will consult English Nature.
JR introduced the subject of traffic. The developers have reported on likely peak hour traffic and conclude that 115 cyclists will commute in peak hour to work. This would be 16% of all commuters. Fleet and Church Crookham have a very high accident rate for cyclists and motor cyclists. A show of hands demonstrated that out of the entire audience only Charles Herbert cycled regularly to work. TW considers the junctions safe but a lot of minor accidents do not get reported to the police. An individual was knocked off their bike on Sunday by a car. TW’s assessment measures the junction capacity at Reading Road South as 1850 cars and the Sandy Lane junction near Gally Hill Road as 1,500 cars. Taking into account the nature of the Sandy Lane junction, this isa clear discrepancy. Please can HCC forward this and other observations made by the public about statements made in the Transport Assessment to W S Atkins (HCC’s traffic consultants) or we will be condemned to grid lock.
Question A resident had looked at a 1932 street map and with the exception of Crookham Cross Roads not much has happened to the roads since. How can we improve traffic flow? This virtually impossible, so no extra development is possible.
Question JR Is it the policy of HCC to cause traffic gridlock so that the problem will go away?
HCC Highways representative said that TW had submitted a Transport Assesment document in the last days and need to work through it, but more information is needed. Provided supplementary information is provided quickly, should be able to assess adequacy of mitigation proposals and see if they are realistic. HCC would welcome the opportunity to meet with representatives from the community to talk through the issues. HCC is the highway authority and HCC can only advise on views on traffic assessment and amelioration measures. Cycling - systems for safe routes to schools. The development will naturally create ‘X’ numbers of car trips, but what measures will support other modes of transport. Most will drive their cars, but we do need to encourage other modes.
Question A resident had been told by TW that an average house would cost £300k. In Hull the same house would cost £80K. There are no parking spaces left at Fleet Station, commuters are driven by their wives, do you think that such people travel by bus?
Question Consider all the other developments already going on eg Redfields Lane and Watery Lane and Redfields Garden Centre, this is all extra traffic and gridlock will come.
DS Hart is reputed to average 3 cars per dwelling. If there are 1½ car parking spaces per dwelling , then 1½ vehicles will also park on the road. This guidance comes from the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (ODPM).
Question Andrew Macallan, the Transportation Assessment Report does not consider Reading Road South, Gally Hill Road etc. It does not consider facilites. Where do residents go for facilities? We have no large supermarket and one swimming pool for the whole District shared with a school. Winchfield Station is quicker to reach than Fleet, it takes 7 minutes and Fleet takes 10 minutes on a Sunday morning
Question Sharyn Wheale said she is on the development control committee and had one simple question to ask HCC - one of the problem areas is schools and this is a national problem. I hear that other modes of transport will be encouraged by the developer. Can you name me one school where this has worked? HCC replied that he could not name a school. Some work has made inroads into the school run and some success in other parts of the County with targeting parents. He shares our concerns, but have to keep trying because culture and safety issues are all big issues. IL said he had not been consulted by Highways. A resident (Mr Wrigley) gave the example that a bus to Calthorpe Park school costs the parents £600 pa per child. "There is a silly situation with illogical catchment areas in Fleet."
Question What happens if houses are not built in the plan period? LF replied that there was a danger that Councillors could be removed and the Government could put in people to see the housing through. LF said she would still fight the development and added that planning by appeal gives you nothing from developer contributions. However, there is no benefit from 6,000 homes in Hart.
Question There has been no mention of the traffic arising from St Nicholas’ School, has anyone asked their views?
Question South West Trains are cutting the number of trains from Fleet. Fleet has a part-time fire appliance and there are two in Rushmoor Borough Council. Police station is now open for very limited hours.
JR reminded everybody that the consultation period had been extended to 08/10/.03
The formation of the Community Campaign
Group (CCG) took place. A constitution was read out and agreed. The
following officers were elected:
Note: Contact details for the CCG are available on the CCG web-site
Alison Macallan (16th September